Sean Imboden: Into the Heart of Big Band Jazz
The Indianapolis-based saxophonist opens up about his move from Broadway sideman to big band leader, the creative challenges of leading a seventeen-piece jazz ensemble, and the community spirit that shaped his debut album 'Communal Heart.'
Today, the Spotlight shines on saxophonist and composer Sean Imboden.
Sean spent years touring with Broadway shows and working as a sideman, but something was missing. He stepped away from a lucrative career path and took a leap, returning to Indianapolis, where he ultimately formed his 17-piece orchestra. Now that ensemble releases Communal Heart, an album that captures the community spirit Sean has built around his music, as well as his transformation from comfortable sideman to big band leader.
Sean joined me to discuss this ambitious project and share how he has created what he calls "identifiably human-made music" in an increasingly digital world.
(The musical excerpts heard in the interview are from Sean Imboden Large Ensemble's album Communal Heart)
Dig Deeper
• Visit Sean Imboden at seanimboden.com and follow him on Instagram and YouTube
• Purchase Communal Heart by Sean Imboden Large Ensemble from Qobuz and listen on your streaming platform of choice
• Sean Imboden Large Ensemble - 17-piece modern jazz big band
• Sean Imboden's 'Communal Heart': A Quiet Subversion of the Big Band Canon
Collaborators and Producers:
• Steve Allee - producer and Indianapolis jazz veteran
• Rich Dole - producer and bass trombonist
• Tucker Brothers - Indianapolis quartet featuring Sean
• John Raymond - trumpeter featured on the album
Venues and Organizations:
• Jazz Kitchen - Indianapolis venue supporting the ensemble
• Primary Sound Studios - Bloomington, IN recording studio
• Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra
Current Listening:
• Maria Schneider Orchestra - primary big band influence
• Dalia Stasevska - Finnish conductor
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(This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.)
Lawrence Peryer: How is this project different from you sort of commandeering such a large ensemble? I know you've been doing it for a few years now. How is this different for you as a leader putting together a recording project like this?
Sean: I think one of the tricky things is just trying to zoom out and have a bird's eye view of what we're actually doing. Because sometimes it's easy to get in my head and be like, "Well, it's all about this song, or it's all about this melody, or we gotta get this groove or feel right, or the song has to have the right energy, or I have to make sure I'm telling everybody how to play everything exactly right and I need to control everything."
But I think in a lot of ways it's better to sort of zoom out and say, "Okay, I'm dealing with a group of highly trained, highly creative individuals, and I need to just allow them as much as I can to do their thing." Now, that being said, with a big band, it could be cool to sort of let them all play free and that might be a nice thing to experiment with at one point. But for now it's just kind of like, "Okay, I have to write actual parts for everybody so that it's not total chaos or cacophony when we're performing." So I gotta be pretty exact when it comes to "this is the time you play this part, you play this part." But then remembering that if I sort of give them freedom and let things—let the sparks fly when we're playing live, or maybe even sometimes in the studio—then that can be even way better than something that I can concoct or compose in my head.
And so, you know, that is one of the big things when you're in a small group—that's the name of the game. It comes with the territory; you want everybody to explore. But when you're writing for seventeen people, you can't allow that. You have to sort of say, "Okay, the trombones are doing this now, you know, this is their role. They're doing a background thing. Now they're in the melody role. Now it's all about the drums." And sort of like, you know, you're sort of shaping this form that you want each piece to take, but then in the meantime, you know, leaving those spots open for just circumstance or cool opportunities that you might not think about when you're composing to just sort of happen.
So, and then also the—like a lot of logistical things when it comes to being a good leader. Like I want them to have the best opportunity to do well, and that means getting the parts to them early, making sure everything is—making sure the parts are done well, and then getting their feedback on rehearsal. You know, hardest one for me is trombones, and I'm always asking the trombones like, "How, on a scale of one to ten, how difficult is this four measures for you guys to play?" Because I want them to enjoy it too. And I don't—I've been in situations where I show up to, again, I'm, you know, they're writing something that's just unnecessarily difficult to play, and then that takes away from the enjoyment and then it makes it harder to perform well, which makes the audience enjoy it less, which makes ticket sales go down, which, you know, it just has a spiraling effect. So thinking of it in those terms is helpful too.
And that, you know, that's a whole different side of it than just the purely artistic side. Like, "Oh, I'm putting my heart and soul into these melodies." But then thinking of it—sometimes, and I don't really do this when I'm writing music, but then when it comes to putting the show together, thinking how the set will be shaped and how the audience will take it. You know, we're raising the heart rates here. Now we want to calm it down. Now we want to be a little more experimental. Now we want to make it just be right down the middle. You know, all of those little things. And you know, I'm certainly learning that every time we perform I learn a lot. But yeah, I mean, there's so many aspects with being a leader.
Lawrence: Yeah. There's a lot in there. That's really fascinating to me. But one thing I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you about—what is it about trombone that is particularly challenging for you to compose for?
Sean: Yeah, that's a good question. Well, you know, as a woodwind player, I'm pretty solid on the saxophones. Even when I have them doubling, I have, you know, them playing flutes, soprano clarinet, alto, tenor, bari, bass clarinet, and I play all those instruments well. So I'm comfortable there. With rhythm section, you know, I've always played in bands that have had rhythm sections, whether it's even all the way back into high school when I was playing in big bands, and then college started playing in more small group things. Even out of school, pretty much every band has some type of rhythm section involved. So you're at least always hearing drums. You're hearing the role of the bass, you're hearing somebody comp on either guitar or piano. So I think for me, I would always get that really in my head, and at least if initially I couldn't notate it exactly right, I sort of knew what I wanted, and then in rehearsal, if you have the drummers doing something, I can hear it and say, "Uh, maybe move to the right, or let's take it—just hang out on the hi-hat for now. Or I want you to be on like the bell, the cymbal like really laying it down." I would give a lot of verbal instructions. Then my drummer a lot of times will help me. He'll say, "Oh yeah, just notate—I just need melody here in my part." And they would help me out there. And then, you know, same when it came to like guitar, and they would help me out with like how to make their parts best for them.
Lawrence: Yeah.
Sean: But trombone, it's a lot more—you know, they're in bass clef, which is secondary clef, you know, saxophones are in treble clef. So when it just comes to purely notating that, I'm not as comfortable reading and then notating the bass clef, but then also just when you're maneuvering around on the trombone, you know, they have different positions and different positions they can hit certain partials and overtones and harmonics. So, and all that stuff I don't really—I don't know. I've never played a trombone, but I've, you know, I'm always learning and talking to them. And so when it comes to where the range is best—one of the interesting things about it is that most of the trombone notation when you're writing the actual notes, it's above the staff typically, which on a saxophone part would be in the higher register. But that's like sort of in the meat of the trombone register, which is unnatural for me to read and think about as I'm composing. So I was like, "Oh, is this too high?" They're like, "No, this is great." They're like, "It was too low before. What you're writing now, I was like, 'Okay, perfect.'" So we're sort of dialing it in now.
Trumpet is a little bit more natural because when you're reading it, also, for me, it's in treble clef, which makes sense. But then just when you—how you see the notes fall on the page, it looks a little bit more like a saxophone part, which is what I'm used to. Trombone is just sort of the odd one out of all the big band instruments. And I will say we just did another recording session actually for our second album, and one of the trombone players is like—'cause I'm always asking them—they're like, "No, no, everything you write," but I think he said, "Nothing you write is anywhere close to impossible." So, you know, you're doing good. They're like, "We'll let you know." So, yeah. I mean, but I, yeah, always trying to learn and, you know, there's always something to learn when it comes to this, especially when you're thinking about like acoustic instruments. 'Cause people spend decades mastering these things, and if it's not your main instrument or you don't have a lot of experience with it, there's so much nuance and detail that you can take in. And a lot of it comes to like what, you know, what do you want it to sound like when you're writing this part? Do you want it to sound blasting or mellow or energetic or relaxed or strained? Ugly or pretty? You have these—all these spectrums that you can choose from, and it's your job as a composer to make that decision and then leave it up to the player to really figure out how to do it. I just need to give them clear instructions and then they take the ball across the finish line and get it done.
Lawrence: I love the idea that the instrumentalists help you learn how to communicate with them outside of just the—or not even, I was gonna say outside the written page, but how to take your natural verbal style and your verbal direction and translate that into something you can actually put down on paper for them. That's actually really beautiful.
Sean: Oh, it's so valuable and, yeah, it's cool how it lends into the idea of—well, sort of the concept of this first album, the idea of community, and that was one of the things that I realized is that like, you know, if they notice I'm really putting work into this music and they enjoy the music, they enjoy playing, they want to help me also make the best arrangements and parts and compositions possible. 'Cause they're the ones playing it, you know, they can lend a lot to the final outcome that's not just playing the part itself. And it was funny, my drummer just had a birthday party and as sort of a joke gift, I made this part for him that was four pages of just, um, what we call slash notation, which is just like blank measures with no description. Sort of like an early drum part I would've made him before I knew what I was doing. Now I make good drum parts for him 'cause he has taught me really what to do. But, so I made one of these for him and he was like, "That was the best gift." He said he was trying to explain it to his wife and she didn't get it. It was just like the most inside musician joke. But he was loving it. And it reminded us of back when we started the band and, you know, I was learning and we all had a lot to learn. And so yeah, we've enjoyed that experience and just like sticking with it has been really valuable.
Lawrence: Yeah. Where do you compose? Do you compose at a piano or do you compose on like…
Sean: Most of the time it is at the piano. I do have hundreds of voice memo audio recordings in my phone where if I'm out somewhere, maybe a melody or a bassline or a rhythm will come to me. And a lot of times I'll just sit down and just sing into my phone maybe ten or twenty seconds of a small idea. If I feel inspired, I'm like, "Oh, this is a cool idea." Then a lot of times what I'll do weeks or maybe months later, I'll sit down and just start to go through these voice memos and pick out the ones that are still speaking to me or that I feel like have potential. And then I'll try to flesh them out at the piano and say, "Okay, if I've got this rhythm, I need to add some harmony or maybe I need to add a melody on top of it."
But a lot of times, yeah, I'll sit at a piano. Especially if it's a nice piano, you know, that's in tune and has a nice sound. I can be really inspired just for hours and I'll just get lost. And sometimes I need to be careful. I'll even have to set an alarm if I need to leave to go somewhere, or else I'll just forget about my responsibilities because, you know, as a saxophone player, this is one of the things I think about a lot. It's a great instrument, one of the best, but it lacks in the ability to play actual harmony. Anytime you're playing the saxophone, I think about it as we're sort of implying harmony, but we're not actually playing it. 'Cause harmony technically is two or more notes played at once. I mean, I can play up a scale and I'm implying like a major scale or a minor scale, but you know, playing a harmony instrument like keyboard or piano, I can really delve into the harmony and I can then also be thinking about counter lines. I can be playing a bassline with my left hand and then try to come up with a melody in the right hand, or a lot of times what I'll do is come up with a bassline that I like, record that, and then just loop that and I'm listening, and then I'll try to hear and just sing a melody that's coming to me naturally.
That's typically the way I come up with the initial idea of a song. And then maybe I'll add harmony to it. Maybe the harmony will come before the melody, but usually I'm piecing it together and then layering ideas on top and then developing it and then. Once I get the basic idea, then I'm trying to expand it and blow it out into the arrangement for the full band. And that comes into play of like, "Okay, what's more of like the style? What do I envision the drums doing? How do I envision the role of each horn section? And you know, who's gonna have the melody when? And where do I want the peak to be?" So—one analogy I like is just the idea of, you know, a sculptor showing up and they start with just this huge big block of stone and each day they come and just chip away just a little bit more each time. And then the visual that they're trying to create becomes a little bit more clear after days and weeks. And then, you know, they're just chipping away and refining it into the exact thing that they have in their mind. And it was very similar to me where you have this maybe big block, which is just the initial melody or just the bassline, and then you're chipping away to add elements to get it to sound, I guess, you know, what you want it to be like, but I never really know what the end is gonna be like. There's another analogy I heard an author say one time where they said writing a novel is sort of like driving in the country at night with your headlights on, but in that sense, like, "Okay, you can see maybe fifty, maybe seventy-five feet ahead of you, but you have no idea what's two, three miles down the road. You just gotta take that path and it could turn into water, it could turn into just like woods, or it could turn into a highway. You don't know until you get down there." That's very much how I feel about writing music like this. "This four bars feels great. Let's see where it goes. And then let's see where the next minute takes us." And so I just kind of have to stick with it. And it's definitely not overthink it, not get in my head, not let the theoretic or like music, harmony, brain take over. It just needs to be a natural, like trying to hear it—stay in that abstract state of mind and just sort of follow the feeling of where the music wants to go.
Lawrence: Before I move on from this sort of line of inquiry, I'm curious, when you're working on your arrangements and your parts for the other instruments, do you ever, you know, do you use MIDI? Are you using a workstation? Are you hearing the music orchestrated before you hear it in the room with the players?
Sean: Sometimes I do. One thing that I am trying to do is get to the place of not using those tools as a crutch, although they are very valuable. And what I mean is that, you know, I know some composers like, uh, Maria Schneider being an example. I heard an interview with her where she was talking about how she doesn't ever do that and just sketches everything out. I think she has, uh, then a copyist that will put it into the music notation software for her, which creates the parts for her band, but she's writing everything at the piano. And of course like, you know, you can hear chords and multiple layers happening at the piano, but it's not the same as hearing the timbres of the instruments.
But I do use Finale, although Finale is kind of going by the wayside and there's a new program, Dorico, which is sort of taking over that landscape, which I am gonna be starting to use soon. And yeah, essentially, you know, you can just plug in the notes for each instrument and then it has a playback option that's pretty good, especially for horns in terms of, you know, you hear, "Oh yeah, this is"—you hear the trumpets being played along with the saxophones and trombones and you can add the rhythm section parts if you want, which for me helps a lot in terms of, "Is the arrangement—does it have the clarity that I want? Am I hearing this thing that I need to at that certain time? Is there too much going on? Is maybe, is the energy not building the way that I want it to?" So I do use those, but I am always trying to build the sound of the piece in my head before I hit play on those things. Just because I feel like that's a more useful skill than always relying on that playback. Because you know, one of the big things is like, yeah, it is difficult to get a band like this together to rehearse consistently. And so those rehearsals are so valuable. A lot of times when we'll start a piece in rehearsal, I'll be like, "Oh, this—I'm like, oh, thank goodness, this is exactly what I wanted." Or there'll be other times where I'm like, "Oh no, the balance is way off." But it's usually pretty easy to fix. But it's just, that's the extra step where it is challenging to hear everything exactly—like, exactly like it will be in rehearsal. But yeah, uh, Finale is good for that. And, um, Logic is another really good program for layering. I haven't used MIDI specifically. Just 'cause I feel like I get what I need with the finale playback, which has been useful. But yeah, I mean those tools are valuable, but always trying to build up sort of my internal music library to the point where I can do as much as I can mentally before hitting play on those playback options.
Lawrence: You sort of brought me to my next question, which was about, um, sort of the preparation in the logistics for recording sessions like these. I mean, you know, you know better than I do. You know, we're in an era of sort of, it's not like there's a big major label budget that's just waiting to be spent by you. I can barely organize a conference call with four people, nevermind a couple of days of sessions with seventeen people. Could you tell me a little bit about, you know, what does preparation look like and how does the fact that you sort of know you have a finite amount of time with this group of people, you've gotta get it done. Talk to me about that experience and those feelings. The stakes feel high.
Sean: Yeah, absolutely. That is a great question because it is sort of—and I think about this quite a bit as just the person that I am just naturally. And it's funny, I was—a few weeks ago I took one of those online personality tests 'cause I haven't done a lot of that. But I'm always curious about just like the psychological aspects of this thing. And I actually, it shed quite a good amount of light on just my sort of internal psyche, which is that for me, I'm high in what they call openness, which is just like that covers like the creative aspect. You know, I love, like I was saying, sitting down the piano, just coming up with ideas. I can do that forever, have no responsibilities and I'll be perfectly happy. But then the other side of it, which goes along a little bit with like the leadership aspect, but then just the logistics of making this happen, you know—getting the funding together, the scheduling, getting all the musicians on the same page and getting into the studio, getting the rehearsals done beforehand so that we're really sharp in the studio. After that, getting the mixing, the mastering done. After that, the post-production, getting physical copies, getting it out into the world. This is really my first project where I've gone all the way and really now trying to put things out there a bit more. And so there were a lot of new sort of rocks to uncover and see, "Okay, what happens when I do this?"
And so for me, luckily, I'm also just naturally—my personality is high on what they call, I think, conscientiousness, which is, involves more of like the detail aspect and really just like living in my email inbox when it's time to schedule a rehearsal. And so for me it is thinking ahead and then being very clear and concise with the details for the band. So for example, you know, right now what I'm doing is I'm looking at booking a gig in November or December for the band, and it's like, "Okay, if I can nail down a date, I check with key players in the band first," which involves like lead players of each section and bassist and drummer in the band, making sure they're solid. Then I reach out to the full band in a concise email with the dates, time, pay. "Here it is, get back to me in a few days," then boom, we book it with the club and then move on to the next one. So it's very much within that side of it, staying on top of the details and not waiting. I mean, naturally I think a lot of artists are procrastinators just because we're like, "Oh, this can be a little bit better. Let me wait. I don't wanna record yet 'cause I'm not quite ready." But one thing that helps a lot with that is what I've realized is like, if you would give yourself a grade of like a B+ on this project, finish it and move on to the next one. 'Cause if you wait to get that A, A+, your brain is always gonna shift the goalposts and make it farther away because you always—a lot of us are close to perfectionists. But that doesn't exist. You gotta go for that B+, A- and be like, "Okay, I can accept that. Lemme move on to the next thing." And if you do that, it's hard to realize is that each time we do that, we do get a little bit better. And so even though it might be a B+ right now, the way you would grade the next project, it wouldn't be a B+. It would actually be just like more of an A or an A+ because you got better by doing that first project.
So then the other side of it, when it comes to the funding aspect—that is, that's a tricky one. 'Cause yeah, no label involved with this. What we did, we got a lot of support from the community. We did a Kickstarter, which helped a bunch. We have had a good local following here in Indianapolis where we—a lot of times we'll do performances here at the Jazz Kitchen, which is a great club. And what I realized is that coming out of COVID, you know, people were really hungry for live performance. And so when we started booking, we actually started selling at our shows. And I was like, "This could actually be the springboard into what allows us to make our first album." Because even on, and I was certainly doing it on the absolutely relative cheap side, especially compared to like how the big bands in New York City are recording their albums. I mean, I've seen some of their budgets and it's crazy how they're doing it, but, you know, there's an amazing studio, just an hour south of Indianapolis in Bloomington, Indiana, near Indiana University, and an amazing genius audio engineer there. And he owns the studio and he's, you know, willing to give us a great price. And so with our Kickstarter and then me just saving my pennies on my own, we were able to penny pinch and make it happen and get together. And we did have some great people that were, you know, individuals that were able to chip in and help fund a good amount of it as well—just lovers of the arts and people that just live here and just want and have the means to support projects.
So yeah, I got really lucky in a lot of ways. And now just thinking about, "Okay, maybe I can turn this into a nonprofit so we can continue to get bigger donations and more funding. Maybe I can get some companies, corporations involved on a bigger level, maybe get sponsorships, that sort of thing." And just trying to think outside the box because, you know, and I have absolutely no shame, no problem asking people for money because if I don't, I'm not making this happen on my own. You know, I'm not—I'm an adjunct music professor when I'm not playing gigs, which I'm happy with, but it's—the nice thing about it is that you realize that a lot of people want to be involved. Even if they don't play an instrument, they want to support the arts. And now you just have to make those connections with people. And even back to the days of Beethoven, Bach, and Mozart, you know, so many people had patrons and that's how a lot of people made their projects happen and had their ideas come to fruition. So that's how I'm thinking about it now, and hopefully we can just continue it that way.
Lawrence: I'd like to come back to the Kickstarter campaign a little in a few minutes, but I'm curious about how working with the producers on this record—and please tell me if I get their names, if I say this wrong—Steve Allee and Rich Dole.
Sean: Yep. Okay.
Lawrence: Talk to me a little bit about like how their perspective—how their presence, you know, how did they help you shape and capture the sound you were going after? Because you spoke earlier about when you're in arrangement mode and composition mode, you're hearing what you want. And you talked about hearing the playback and getting the clarity of the sound, and how did they help you? And maybe, uh, maybe I can ask you to also include in your response, what did they bring that maybe you weren't anticipating that they'd bring.
Sean: Yeah, absolutely. Well, both of those guys have so much experience. Steve Allee I believe he is in his mid-seventies now, and he's been a professional musician his whole life. He leads his own big band, so he's been doing it forever and just has so much knowledge. Not about just the nuts and bolts of music, but just about the overall, the big picture about what do you want this piece to feel like? Where do you want it to go? And I remember specifically Steve, a few times in rehearsal, we would play through something and I would be like, "Yeah, this feels good." You know? And I was always checking with Steve, "Okay, like, what do you think? Do you have any feedback on this one?" And a lot of times he would come down to general conceptual things like, "What's volume shape that you sort of envision this chart to have?" And so some of my charts are pretty just like punch you in the face, high energy throughout, which I enjoyed because I felt like some of the other charts would balance it out. Some of the more relaxed, prettier ones. But he would say, "Okay, what about if this section, we even bring it down just a bit. Then when we come to this big climax here, it'll make it even more powerful," and then he would have specific ideas about like, "Okay, maybe if the drums specifically went to like a hi-hat groove here, and then they can sort of ramp it up, build into this next section. Then we have a bit more ebb and flow, and then it makes it a little bit more exciting as opposed to like level ten for like seven minutes." If we can bring it down to like a seven, then we can ramp it back up a little bit. Just these little shaping things that would just add so much musicality to the pieces. And that's where Steve in particular was super helpful.
Rich—actually, it was funny, I didn't even ask Rich to be a producer originally, but one thing that I did after we recorded and I had initial mixes, I sent them out to the band and I just asked, "Anybody that has any feedback, absolutely send it my way because I have my two ears. But I want all of you to chime in if you have any information that you think is valuable." And Rich sent me back a really detailed email with lots of little great ideas, maybe things that I wasn't even specifically thinking about. Rich too, has played in big bands forever. He's done a lot of arranging. He is such a well-rounded musician with so many different skills. And so he would give me things like, "Oh, I can't hear the proper balance between like the bari sax and the bass trombone and these four measures here." Or it would be like little things like that where it's like, "Okay." And he himself is a trombone player, so he's giving me specific things, especially—and he's the bass trombone player. A lot of times when I write, I like to double the acoustic bassline that I've written with either bari or bass trombone, or maybe both. 'Cause it gives it just a little bit more punch and body on that low end, which I really love. You'll notice that on some of the pieces, I think like the beginning of "Certified Organic," it's like they're playing this line together, and he was like, "Oh, you know, if you bump up the volume of the bass trombone a little bit, it'll give a little more body, and then the bari sax, the reediness of it can cut through. Then you have the body and the cut that you want." Little things like that, it might have been like subtly out of balance. So he would get very, very detailed. Which was great because you know, when there's seventeen people playing, there's so much nuance and detail to take in and I'm doing the best that I can. But after so many listens, when you're mixing, a lot of times your ears just sort of go blind to it in a way where you're not hearing the details of those first few listens. So Rich gave me so much, I was like, "Rich, I'm making you a producer," without you even asking for it, because this is so helpful. And he even then would chime back in. We did another round of mixes, then Rich would give me a little bit more feedback. All little very detailed, nuanced things just because, you know, there is a lot involved with this. And so Steve was great with big picture stuff. Steve was also there in the recording booth on recording days. Rich was playing in the band, so Rich gave me more of his feedback later after we did mixing. But yeah, I mean, that's the thing about this, it's so helpful to have outside and different perspectives where it's not just mine. I mean, I'm pretty good with hearing most things, but you know, there are always gonna be things that you miss. So you need that extra guidance.
Lawrence: Speaking of guidance, can you tell me a little bit about your parents and what you observed watching them navigate music, both as, you know, art, livelihood—you know, what did you absorb from watching them go through that?
Sean: Yeah, I think one of the biggest things that I noticed, you know, as a kid, they were always running around to different gigs, recording sessions, teaching opportunities, any sort of performance that would come up. And a lot of times, you know, they wouldn't know—it would be maybe like a Tuesday or Wednesday and they would be like, "Well, I don't know what I'm doing on Saturday." Then they would get a call for a gig and then me and my brother would get a babysitter, which we would be excited about 'cause it meant, "Oh, no rules for a little bit in the house." Little things like that. But it was normal for them to have a sort of abnormal work life, which to us we didn't see it as abnormal because, you know, we're kids. It's all we knew. So I think for me, in a lot of ways, when I grew up with that sort of schedule that was all over the place, it wasn't like worrisome or uncomfortable or scary to me. It just felt normal. And so I think as I got older, I was always okay with being a freelancer where I didn't necessarily know where the next check or when the next check was coming. And it was like, "Okay, going gig to gig didn't feel weird," where I saw a lot of my classmates and then coworkers as I got into my twenties on different gigs, a lot of people were always concerned like, "Oh, I don't know if I'm gonna be a musician." In my mind, I was always just kind of like, "Yeah, I'm gonna be a musician. Like, what? What's the problem? Like this is just what we do." And so I think that was a big advantage where even now I feel fairly open to a relatively good amount of risk. And what I mean is that I don't feel bad if I don't have a gig for a week or two because I'm always putting in the work, I'm always making connections, getting better as a musician, and creating opportunities for myself down the road. So it's like I know more and more things will come and luckily they have, and I hope it continues that way.
But like for example, one thing that I started doing in the past few years was being an adjunct music teacher at two universities. That was something that my dad used to do as well. And I remember seeing him do that saying, you know, "Well, it's interesting, you know, I see my dad sort of piecing together his income, where he'll teach for a few days and maybe then he'll have private students at home, then he'll go do some gigs on the weekend." A lot of times he had so many opportunities and, you know, back in the late eighties and nineties when I was growing up, he would get phone calls all the time. And you know, this was even before caller ID. So I even remember middle of dinner, phone rings. He's jumping up, picking up the phone, "Hello," 'cause it might be his next paycheck on a gig. And you know, I always just, my brother and I were always joking. My dad would just be running to the phone, you know, grabbing it or right when we get home. Checking the voicemail right away to see if any gig calls came in, and that, you know, that to us was normal and just seeing and piecing that together.
So for me, it was always like kinda like, "Okay, this is how you do it. This is how you make it happen." Before I had my university teaching jobs, I didn't even apply for those jobs. It was more about being on the scene somewhere and having the connections. And then those people that needed help in those teaching situations would just reach out to me because I was there. And so making those opportunities and being available, that was one of the big things that I got from my parents is like being available, being a good communicator, having those connections, and then always working on the craft. My parents were—you know, I would hear them practice every day and it, to me that was the norm. My dad played all the woodwind instruments, so I would hear him play everything from flute, clarinet, oboe, bassoon, all the saxophones. He had his studio, he had all of his horns in his closet. He would pull out, he would show me, and he even got me started on clarinet when I was in middle school, gave me my first lessons, and then I remember him specifically like giving me instruments. One Christmas he would give me a flute. The next Christmas he would give me like a soprano saxophone, really setting me up. My mom is a violinist, always hearing her practice and working on etudes and just like really understanding. I would really understand the idea of putting that work in, slowly seeing it pay off over time. So yeah, that was the big thing, just growing up and witnessing that lifestyle firsthand and the work that you need to put in and the flexibility that you need to have and the dedication—there's so many facets involved to it.
But yeah, I mean, if it wasn't for my parents, a lot of times I even doubt I would be a musician. I mean, I just—everything came from them initially and then it just grew into becoming my life. And luckily, you know, I did, and it's hard to say how much talent plays into it versus work versus the environment you grow up in. And I don't think we've still fully uncovered that formula or know how it works, but to me it was certainly all of that involved and it just all came together to allow me to follow the passion of music.
Lawrence: It's interesting. If I understand your path correctly, you found steady work in New York somewhat quickly, if you don't mind me saying it that way, like, you know, you established yourself, you got good ongoing gigs, were able to tour, and I'm curious about the lack of fulfillment that you've talked about. What was that about? Like what was missing from that work as sort of a—I think of those gigs as like, that's solid. Like that's a path, you know what I mean? It's a working musician's life. What weren't you getting that you needed?
Sean: Yeah, you're absolutely right. It is very solid, and I was very grateful to have it. I lucked out in so many ways, especially like right after I finished my undergrad. I remember one of my professors hooked me up with the producer of the show Blast, which it was crazy, like, you know, graduated school in the spring. That summer they started rehearsing for that Blast tour, and that was the first tour that I did, and then the next year after that, I decided I want to go to—I went to grad school in New York. When I finished grad school, I got another tour with Blast and then after that I started touring with the Broadway shows, all mostly over North America. And then went back to New York and did the Radio City Christmas show one year. So I did a stint of, I guess about eight years of touring.
And yeah, it was great, you know, and being on the road, I didn't have a mortgage, I didn't have rent, I had no bills. I could just save the money. Everything about it was good in so many different ways and getting to travel, meet lots of cool people in the cast, but also in the cities that you go to. I think I traveled to—well I did, I traveled to every state except Hawaii and Alaska during that period. And we went to Japan a few times and all over Canada and all that was amazing. And saving money and you know, getting better at the craft of playing multiple instruments and playing lots of different music and a lot of the Broadway music. I truly love, like there are moments of the show A Chorus Line written by Marvin Hamlisch that are just absolutely stunningly beautiful moments of Hairspray that are great and so fun and even little moments that I gotta like improvise a little bit in some of those shows and playing a little bit of the show South Pacific, just like gorgeous orchestral arrangements. A lot of musical fulfillment in maybe just little capsules or little snippets of those times.
The tricky part for me was when it came to, you know, doing a long tour. One of the—the hard parts, not necessarily the straw that broke the camel's back for me, but like a lot of the tours that I was doing early on were what we call non-union shows, which would be one-nighter shows where, you know, you get up 6:00 AM, ride the bus to the next city. Get there at 4:00 PM, go to the venue, do soundcheck, play the show, do the next thing the next day. And so you're traveling to, like, we were doing a lot of the sort of like, I guess C and D markets. You know, we're not doing the bigger markets. We're not playing Chicago, Indianapolis, or even, yeah, even Indianapolis or New York or Miami. Any of those cities we're doing cities that most people haven't heard of, which not a bad thing. Still cool. Actually, a lot of those little cities we would go into, I'd go to like pawn shops and buy awesome like music, DVDs, things that weren't even on YouTube yet. Anyway, that's a side note.
Lawrence: And they had their little theaters that might have been like movie houses in the twenties or old vaudeville theaters. That's fascinating about little smaller cities and towns in this country.
Sean: Oh, so cool. You would go in. A lot of times you would just go down into this little pit orchestra and it would be super tight and we'd be right next to each other. You just knew the history that went through that building was just like incredible. And then you would go up into the house and see like the woodwork and the design and just like the level of detail and care that went into just building those places. That was amazing. I mean, a lot of times with the newer theaters, you don't see that stuff. You just see wood walls and just like a blank stage. A lot of times it's missing the character from those old houses. Yeah. I mean, so much of the touring experience was great and fun, especially being in my twenties and doing that out of school. I was super lucky to have those opportunities.
I think for me, one of the big things was that I, in my heart, the thing that really drew me to music and got me really, really hooked was jazz specifically, but just the ability to be creative and express myself, which I didn't necessarily think when I started doing the Broadway shows. I was like, "Oh yeah, I'm playing my instrument. I'm getting paid for it. This is amazing." Pretty steady work too. As soon as one tour ended, the company would say, "Hey, we're doing this next one, starting in the fall. Are you available? It'll run till the spring." And I'd say, "Yeah, let's do it." You know, I'm making this money. I didn't have any other jobs. I'm like, "Yeah." But one thing that I noticed was that, you know, that show started at 7:00 PM every night. You play that show and it's the exact same show every single night, sometimes up to nine months straight of the exact same thing. Now, yeah, I have my days off. Even if I'm maybe riding the bus, technically, sometimes I'm not. Sometimes I get to wander around the city and explore. But when it came to the actual work and the music, I was sort of missing that element of creativity and being able to express myself, which when I was younger, like in college and grad school and a little bit of the time when I was living in New York playing jazz gigs and getting to interact and improvise and make up my own thing and see where the music went in the moment, that's all sort of taken away when you're playing a Broadway show. 'Cause they don't want you to do any of that. They just want you to play the exact book the same every single night because there's so many other factors involved, like the singers need to hear when we're doing that so that they catch their cue. You know, it's all very orchestrated in a very detailed way.
I liked the openness and the creativity of playing jazz in a small group, especially. What I realized later was that I really enjoyed and had a knack for writing my own music. So that was the next element that came into it. But yeah, for me it hit me when I did the Radio City show in New York, that was a situation where they actually had auditions and it was behind a curtain and I went in and, you know, I didn't have connections there, but luckily I had built up the skills at that time from doing the touring shows where I was able to win a spot in the Radio City Orchestra, played that show. I realized, I think it also does come down to that idea of just what your personality is naturally. And for me, you know, I would see people—my dad is one of these people where he's perfectly okay with not being involved in music in a creative way, but just more of a commercial way, which there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. If that was my natural feeling, it would—my life would probably be easier and I would make more money. But like for me, it comes down to just needing to have that creative outlet, which you don't really get with the Broadway stuff. So I had to just sort of make a decision and say, "Okay, can I create a path for myself where I'm fulfilled and I really want, and I have the desire to do what I'm doing." After a while I was like, you know, I would kind of dread those 7:00 PM downbeats, you know, for the Broadway shows. Even though, yeah, steady gig, I had everything to be thankful for, but I had to sort of look inside and say, "Okay, what really makes me happy about this music? And can I find a way to live a life where I'm pursuing that?"
Lawrence: It is funny you mentioned the pawn shops. My, uh, my significant other, and I, we just did—we just got back yesterday from, uh, a road trip around Washington State. She and I intentionally, uh, you know, we live outside of Seattle. I had never been to Spokane, so we drove across the state that way and then did a loop through the south ended at the shore. But, um, we hit a lot of little small, formerly thriving Western—maybe they were, you know, mining towns or whatever they were at some point. And, um, those places have the best thrift stores.
Sean: Oh, incredible. Oh my gosh, yes. I would love because that was one of the things that I realized that, especially going around the country so much, you know, when I first started touring, I didn't really know what to expect. But like, then when you get out there, you notice so much of, um, in a lot of ways, homogeny across the country where I would see so many, "Okay. Starbucks, McDonald's, Cracker Barrels," and I'd be like, "Oh man, it's everywhere." But then you get into the smaller towns and you really get into the heart of it. And then you go to these places, a lot of mom and pop places, or old pawn shops even. A lot of times we would go instrument hunting and find these old antique saxophones are like valuable, like Mark VI Selmer saxophones, and like all these things in these little shops. It would just be like a gold rush for us. And a lot of times early on, like, like I was saying with the music DVDs, this stuff wasn't even online yet. We would find old recordings or old tapes and vinyl and all this stuff that was, that you couldn't find on the internet yet. And so that was amazing and yeah, I really did grow fond of that idea of just like exploration and embracing that because it was tough. I mean, those one-nighter shows you'd, and those days and travel days, you'd just be exhausted, but then you would embrace every little city that you would go into. I remember, yeah, we went to Spokane. Absolutely. And we went all over Washington and Oregon and all over California. Yeah. I've been all those places. The tricky thing now is actually just trying to remember specific cities. 'Cause we went to hundreds of cities, but it's all back there lodged in my subconscious somewhere.
Lawrence: We were in an area called Tri-Cities, which you may or may not be familiar with, but it's, uh, it's, lo and behold it's three cities along where a couple of rivers converge. Not too far from Hanford, which was one of the Manhattan Project sites. We talked to a young man who owned an antique slash thrift store, and he said he gets some amazing stuff up in Hanford because first of all, it's all these mid-century homes filled with mid-century stuff because the families were, you know, making relatively good money back then, the scientists and the engineers. And they had no way to spend the money and, or they couldn't really leave and come and go. So they would just order all kinds of stuff and like they, he would go into a basement at an estate sale and there'd be all this like, unopened, vintage stuff that, 'cause people were bored and spending money through catalogs and things like that. And, uh, I just, I love those.
Sean: Oh wow. That's, yeah. That's fascinating. That would be amazing to, yeah, try to actually find those spots specifically around the country where that was happening and just go hunting because so much treasure is still out there, you know, waiting to be found.
Lawrence: It's still out there. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to talk to you about the overarching theme of Communal Heart. Not only is the album title, but as what was going on and what is going on around this music and the audience and the performers. You talked about the Kickstarter campaign and that certainly got a communal element to it or a community element. I'm curious about, you know, so much of what you talked about, you've talked about here, has to do with intention and intention setting and creating an environment. Like, how do you cultivate the community feeling practically? How do you do that with the band? How do you do that with the audience? I think you've talked a little bit about how maybe including them in the creative process is part of that, but I'm just curious if there's more to say around the intentional ways you cultivate community.
Sean: Yeah, that's a great question and something I think could still be worth giving more time for just for myself to think about because it was funny how it all came together and when I think back initially when I started the band, it was very much a situation where I was just interested in seeing if I could write music that I love. Who knows where that feeling for me comes from. It's just that natural artistic feeling that I think all of us have on some level. And it's not always about music. It could be about how you're shaping your flower garden or how you're putting up Christmas decorations. Any little thing like that, you know, you get that little jump of excitement when you get to be creative and it turns out the way that you want to, and then you do something else. Or maybe it's how you're like trimming your bushes or how you're detailing your car. Any little thing like that doesn't have to be a great work of art or anything like that. It can be on a small scale and you can get immense satisfaction from that.
But for me, it came down to, "Okay, I really wanna try to make music that I love that really speaks to my soul." And so when I started writing stuff, we would have our first few rehearsals. You know, some of the songs was like, "Okay, I need to fix this. I need to edit this." But then I would hear little moments of that sunshine that would shine through and be like, "Yes, this is exactly what I want. I'm, you know, it just really speaks to me." And the way I was thinking when we first started, I remember hearing the band play. And it was such a bizarre feeling. It was almost like my soul was being played back to me in the music and I was like, "Wow, this is amazing." I didn't think we would get to that point mainly 'cause I wasn't confident, seven years ago or so when we started that my writing ability was sharp enough to do that. And it was a craft that I'm still developing now and always trying to improve, but at that time I was so rough, didn't know what I was doing, but even though those first few rehearsals and then first few performances, I was like, "Oh, I hear little elements where, yes, this is exactly how I'm envisioning the music. And it really speaks to me."
And the way I think about it, a lot of times with jazz, I feel like a lot of our role, uh, specifically as a jazz musician, is to double down on your individuality. And when we think about, we can just make a short list of who we consider to be the masters. Charlie Parker, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Dizzy Gillespie, Thelonious Monk, any of those people that we think about—true individuals, and they went all the way in on what their singular soul and vision of music to them they thought it was supposed to be. And that's the thing that I'm always stressing with my students. And one thing that I try to do with myself is like, "What does my music look and sound like and how can I really double down on that?"
And so that was just sort of the beginning of where it started. From there, it's like, "Okay, I need to really get it so that the musicians in the band, when I send out that email for rehearsal, I want them to be excited to say yes. I don't want it to be the thing where it's like, 'Ah, Sean's charts aren't that great. You know, maybe the pay is not that good. Maybe I'll say no, I'll take a different gig.'" So I was like, "Okay. What can I—what's in my control then to help them to just say, 'Yes, let's do this right away.' And one of the big things is I need their parts to make sense. I need the whole picture to make sense. I want the music to be as good as it possibly can be, and as good as I can make it at the time that I'm making it." When I do that, then it gets the musicians more on board and it gets them excited to show up to rehearsal, even if I'm not paying them what they really deserve. But I'm paying them the best that I can at the time. So then they get invested in the project, they're putting in the work, they're practicing the charts before the gig. They show up to the gig, excited. We put on the best performance that we possibly can. After we do a few of those, we get a little buzz. The word gets out. All of a sudden, as I was saying, after COVID, when we came back, we were getting crowds that I had not anticipated.
And I always think it's funny 'cause some of my music is fairly dissonant, kind of abstract, maybe a little more modern than like the traditional jazz listener wants, but I don't care. You know, as I say, I'm writing it for me. And if I double down on that and it really speaks to me, I think it will speak to a lot of people in the audience, which is what I was noticing. We were getting great responses after some of our concerts. And so when I think about it on that level, then it's like, "Okay, if I really focus on the music moving me, it's likely to move a few other people if I sort of reverse engineer it." Which, you know, there's nothing wrong with that. And there's a lot of music that I love, that I feel like is in a sense, reverse engineered. What I mean is like if you listen to maybe a lot of pop music for example, they're following that formula of like, "Okay, pop song is three to four minutes. It has these little cliche things that you hear on a lot of tunes is a buildup. Then the beat drops and that, you know, it's following a lot of pattern that's designed where people will catch on and little simple catchy melodies." And a lot of that stuff I really love and I'm inspired even by a lot of pop music. There's even, uh, there's a, I think there's a Taylor Swift song out there that has such a cool modulation. I don't know a lot of her music well, but like I heard this on the radio. I was like, "Wow, that's like impressive. And I'm glad that they would put that into a pop song." 'Cause a lot of times you won't hear such like a creative little thing like that.
Then I'm thinking, "Okay, if the audience is, if I'm finding that audience," and you know, I'm not by any means trying to build or expecting an audience the size of Taylor Swift's, but like, I just need my audience to be invested no matter if it's small or big. I need those people to really love it. And the way for me to do that is to make sure I'm doing everything I can to love the music that I'm writing. Then get the musicians involved, then get that crowd on board. So then you have those main, mainly those two elements of the community. The musicians themselves. When we're in rehearsal, we're joking around. It's like our second family in a way, which is great 'cause we're all learning the music together. We're having fun, we're enjoying it, and then we get excited to go play the gig. It's not just a commercial thing—we're showing up, we don't know anybody, we're just doing it for the paycheck. Not that at all. We're very much invested and about—we're about the music in that sense. Shows off then to the crowd, you know, because the crowd comes and they see that we're invested, they see we're trying new things. I'm always, every time we play, I have new music that we're putting on too. So they're excited by the surprise of hearing the new sound, something that they've never heard. And especially when it comes to the solos, they don't know what's gonna happen during the solos. And there's always this level of excitement.
So then, when it comes time to ask, "Hey, do you wanna be involved in helping fund this project?" I think we had over 120 backers in the Kickstarter. That was something I never, honestly, when I set—I think I set the Kickstarter goal for $20,000. I was like, "There's no way. There's no way we're gonna raise this money." And I was just doing it because I was like, "I have to make at least that much to make this project happen." And I was really, it was really just like a Hail Mary. I didn't think we would get it, but I was blown away by the support that we got. And so for me that it feels good and it gives me a lot of confidence in terms of, "Okay, this idea of thinking and just trying to double down on my musical vision really does sort of like touch people and connect with people in ways that I can't imagine until we just perform and see who likes it."
And it's always funny because sometimes I'll, after a show, I'll be hanging out with people and ask, uh, you know, "Which song stood out to you? Which one did you like?" And sometimes the answers are absolutely not what I would expect. You know, it'll be pieces that I think are more dissonant, most people will like. And they're like, "Well, I just love the energy and the rhythm behind that one." And I'll think, "Oh, okay. Wow, that's great." 'Cause it's not one of the more palatable pieces. So yeah, it's just, uh. Being open and willing to really be yourself and knowing that that will connect with people and just, I think for me, always just like not really trying to conform when it comes to art. That's a tough stance to take, but I think it pays off and people enjoy the individuality when they hear it.
Lawrence: Before I let you go, quick question I wanna ask you, so when we're done here, you're gonna go about your day and do whatever you're gonna do next. And I, but I'm curious, at some point you'll probably listen to some music. What's the next thing you're likely to listen to?
Sean: Oh, yeah, that's a great question. Well, I actually just discovered this album a few days ago. It's called Dalia's Mix Tape, which is Dalia is a classical conductor and her last name is Stasevska. I'm probably saying that wrong, but it's Dalia Stasevska and the BBC Symphony Orchestra, and it's all modern classical music, with various composers. And I listened—I just, I forget how I found it, but I heard the first track the other day and I was in the car just completely blown away, which is a little dangerous. If I'm driving, it's like I need to focus on driving right now. Like, do I need to pull—I either need to pull over or turn this song off 'cause it's overtaking me right now. But I love, uh, classical music. We have a great symphony here at the Indianapolis Symphony. I go try to hear them a lot. I have a lot of friends in the symphony that I like to go hear, and I always—they play a good amount of modern classical music as well, along with a lot of the hits. But that's one of the things that I'm really digging into is just this album.
But, um, yeah, I have pretty broad listening taste. As much as I can, I'm always trying to keep an open mind and everything from Radiohead to Rachmaninoff and beyond. I just, you know, try to take it all in, especially as I get older, I feel like there's always something in every kind of music or song that I can learn from and appreciate. So I'm always trying to absorb the things that I like because it does help me when I'm composing. Lots of influences and all sorts of different ingredients that I can use as tools when I'm creating. So just trying to stay open-minded as much as possible.
