Terence Hannum: Revisiting Locrian's The Crystal World
The multi-disciplinary artist reflects on fifteen years since the experimental metal trio's album, exploring the crystalline intersection of visual art, religious studies, and the search for compelling sounds in heavy music's conservative landscape.
Today, the Spotlight shines on visual artist, professor, and experimental musician Terence Hannum.
Terence wears many hats. He is a visual artist, professor, and one-third of the experimental trio Locrian. It's the 15th anniversary reissue of Locrian's The Crystal World that brings us together today. This album marked a turning point for the band, transforming them from a duo into a full trio and giving structure to their sprawling sonic explorations.
The record takes its name and inspiration from J.G. Ballard's 1966 novel, which is about a jungle consumed by crystalline forces. Terence and his bandmates created their version of that suspended, transformative world through layers of drone, metal, and ambient sound.
Terence's here to discuss this landmark release and share how his background in religious studies and visual art continues to shape his approach to making music.
(The musical excerpts heard in the interview are from Locrian's album The Crystal World)
Dig Deeper
• Check out Terence Hannum's visual art at terencehannum.com and his solo music on Bandcamp
• Purchase Locrian's The Crystal World from Utech Records, Bandcamp or Qobuz and listen on your streaming platform of choice
• Follow Locrian on Bluesky, Facebook, and Instagram
• The Horror Tree Presents… An Interview with Terence Hannum
Key Albums Discussed:
• Locrian - The Crystal World (2010 Original)
• Locrian - End Terrain (2024)
• Locrian - Territories (2010)
• Brutalism / Toru Split via Arsenic Solaris
Split Release Collaborators:
• Toru (French experimental trio)
• Arsenic Solaris Records
• Information about Cave In and Torche tour dates
Literary Influences:
• J.G. Ballard - The Crystal World (1966)
• William Gibson - Burning Chrome short stories
• Philip K. Dick - The Man in the High Castle
Musical References and Influences:
• Sun O)))
• John Zorn's Tzadik Records
• Lightning Bolt
• Wolf Eyes
• Einstürzende Neubauten
• Ornette Coleman discography
• Alice Coltrane discography
Visual Artists Mentioned:
• Justin Bartlett tribute and artwork
• Trevor Paglen official site
• David Altmejd artwork
Record Labels and Venues:
• Utech Records
• Load Records catalog
• Relapse Records
• BloodLust! Records
• Empty Bottle Chicago
Academic and Religious Studies:
• Gnostic texts and early Christianity
• Council of Nicea historical context
• Gospel of the Egyptians
• Eschatology in religious studies
Contemporary Artists Mentioned:
• Billy Woods
• Armand Hammer
• Preoccupations
• Viagra Boys
Museums and Institutions:
• Museum of Contemporary Art, Chicago
• Stevenson University
• Columbia College Chicago
Experimental Music Context:
• Aquarius Records legacy and influence
• Maryland Deathfest
• Noise music history and development
• Drone music genre overview
• Free jazz movement overview
• Industrial music history
(This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.)
Lawrence Peryer: I wonder if you could give me any color or insight into how your different artistic pursuits and practices—your visual art, your music—how do those two things inform each other, and is there any interplay that you are consciously aware of?
Terence Hannum: That's a good question. I think yes, in the sense that maybe in the art world, it's maybe a detriment, but I kind of—if I have an idea, I'm just trying it. You know, in music it's kind of, I think we accept that a little bit more with a band trying a new thing or improvisation or whatnot. And I think in visual art, I tend to exhaust a set of ideas and it opens up another door into a new set of ideas. And sometimes it looks like maybe things are very disparate, even though they're coming from a place of experimentation.
But I'd say that music has maybe made me a little more okay with that in my visual practice. I mean, I think intentionally, I used to make a lot of art about music and I used to make a lot of art with music, with cassette tapes. After I, again, exhausted what I felt like I exhausted that idea, I just wanted to have nothing—no music involved in my visual art and just have it be the things I wanted to make. And it's kind of evolved in this really bizarre way into 3D printed sculptures and paintings of 3D printers.
Lawrence: It's interesting that you talk about that bifurcation of your different practices. I'm curious, did you feel initially that music was your primary outlet and you felt like music had to be part of your art? Like, what was going on there for you? Why were they together and what made them split?
Terence: That's interesting. Maybe legitimizing the art through the music, 'cause music was maybe what I was known for. Even though I went to school—I have a master's degree in fine art, and that's where I met Andre and started Locrian—you know, it was like the whole deal. But, you know, at the time, this is over 20 years ago, it was mainly paintings of hardcore bands off of videos and stuff like that. And then I started doing collaborations with like Sun O))) and Prurient and paintings of them, videos, things like that. And again, I've always been really kind of restless with the material, like painting or videos or sculpture. It's just the ideas, what's important.
But I think it just was comfortable. And then as I got older, I kind of was like, I need some distance. Plus—I'm not trying to be pessimistic, but music can be such an unenjoyable place with the politics or the popularity contest or whatever. It can kind of be this—I just don't wanna think about that. I want to focus on the new idea.
And I felt really content when my work, again, I started focusing on poisonous and psychoactive plants and all these ideas of—similar kind of to some Locrian things like the death of humanity or extinction. I just felt like a whole new vein was opened up for what I wanted to do.
But there's a link I think earlier it was like, oh, it makes sense. And that was what I was doing. But as I've gotten older, it's much been like, I like separating things and my head space for making sculptures and installations and paintings is very different than working with Andre and Steven or working with my wife or whatever in my musical projects.
Lawrence: Is it overly reductive to say that one of those paths is much more solitary or your singular vision and the other is more of a collaborative form?
Terence: Oh, no, I don't think so at all. I mean, I think art doesn't have to be—I have a lot of friends who are artists collectives and collaborative duos or whatever, and I think that's really admirable. But yeah, that space of being alone—you know, for me it's like being alone in your basement. That's where my studio is, in my basement. It's very singular. It's like you're by yourself, you're kind of with your thoughts and maybe you're listening to music and you're just kind of working.
It's different than—it's just how much work it is to make music, especially Locrian. We all live in different cities, so it's this total logistic nightmare with everybody's schedules and money and all that stuff. So it's like, sometimes it's just nice to retreat and just be like, I don't gotta deal with any of this. I'm not answering any texts from 10:00 PM on. I'm just painting and putting together these sculptures or whatever. That's all I'm doing, so it's different.
I mean, it's even different than making music solo, you know? Sometimes it's like, I don't wanna make a sound. I just wanna focus.
Lawrence: You kind of foreshadowed the next thing I wanted to ask you about, which was, for lack of a better way to say it, apocalyptic imagery in the music. What's the influence of your earlier studies in religion and philosophy on that? Are you drawing from things you learned or were you one of those young people that were into metal as a kid and taken with that whole mystical universe? Because I remember that quite well myself and very alluring.
Terence: I'd say it just happens in a lot of ways. I mean, what I've always been drawn to from being a kid and being into dark horror movies and getting into metal, especially in the eighties or whatever, where it's like nuclear holocaust is gonna happen tomorrow or something like that. And it all felt pretty relevant.
And then I think with Locrian I think it was much more like, you know, at first maybe we didn't really have a theme. We were just kinda improvising a lot. And then after a few years we started to really cohere around these ideas of post-capitalism or these vacant malls and dead malls, stuff like that kind of really gave us this area and that started to lead into—
I still remember, when I was in high school, I said, like, oh, I like science fiction. And there was this way cooler, long-haired metal guy who was like, well, have you read Burning Chrome? And I was like, I have no idea. And then the next day he brought me a copy of Burning Chrome, William Gibson's short story collection. And it blew my world. I was like, okay, this is my thing. Like I love it.
And I love that I still refer to it and I still look back on it and that started Neuromancer and all the other collaborations and stuff. So Philip K. Dick and everything. So the kind of speculative idea of what the future could be and that it's more worn and beat up was really exciting to me and kind of what I would always seek out.
I really don't know. That's kind of little bits of everything, like zombie apocalyptic movies, heavy metal and science fiction.
Lawrence: There's a Venn diagram.
Terence: But not much really with religion. I think because I mean I was always interested—when I went and studied religion in college and, you know, I've always been kind of fascinated by like, you know, there are other revelations that were written around the same time. And some of them were even considered canonical at one time. And, you know, I just thought that was fascinating, this idea that eschatology was like a genre of religious writing and that was interesting to me and I'll often use those as references sometimes.
Lawrence: Did you get to have much opportunity to study non Judeo-Christian traditions in that part of your academic life?
Terence: A little bit, but not as much, because at the time I was studying things like Hellenistic Greek and translating documents and—
Lawrence: Fucking smarty pants. (laughter)
Terence: Well, you know, I wasn't a straight A student. You know, I quickly realized this was not for me, but it was interesting 'cause the things I was interested in was that I was more interested in the literature that was oppressed and not included in canonical traditions and people like Gnostics or the Laodiceans or whatever that were kind of more mystical or that believed that Jesus was just a spirit and never physical, or Jesus was only physical, or it just was like, oh, this is really weird. I thought it was fascinating that what a diverse group of thinkers and, you know, of course they were squashed by the Council of Nicea or whatever.
But we find these remnants of this belief system that's pretty strange and interesting. That's kinda what I got more into was these stranger kind of early Christian sects that were out there. There was one—the Gospel of the Egyptians were mourning the dead Christ and Christ appears and is like, whatcha guys all sad about essentially. (laughter)
And it's like, what a fascinating idea. You know? I don't know. That stuff to me was always way more interesting than a cohort of other people that were maybe studying it to be more keeping with the tradition and I was more like, so many weird things were happening.
Lawrence: I really appreciate hearing that perspective. 'Cause I, you know, like a lot of people probably of our—I'm assuming we're roughly similar in age by some of the references you've given. I came at a lot of those ideas or came across a lot of those ideas more from a pop publishing point of view. You know, I've always loved the idea of like, Christ lived and fled into Europe, or did he have children or—I don't necessarily care per se. I don't have a stake in the outcome, but I love any kind of alternate history actually. Novels about like, what if the Nazis won, or, you know, it's like all those what if universes are so fascinating.
Terence: The Man in the High Castle.
Lawrence: Yeah, that stuff's fun. It's speculative fiction is fun.
Terence: And I think it's also—I think I've manipulated it a little bit and even with Locrian's End Terrain, there's a book that comes with it and in the book I wrote a traditional religious document, and I wrote it like how they would be transcribed because we'd be missing parts and have to guess at what went in there, the fragments, like these fragmentary documents. And I just was—I love that kind of format and that you can tell a story without telling everything and there's gaps and there's holes and it's like, I always found that really interesting or guessing or whatever, you know, what would be there, what's kind of interesting to me.
Lawrence: Well, and the other thought I share on that topic is it also underlines the fact that the canon isn't the canon because it's the only factual version of the truth.
Terence: Well, yeah. And the irony of it all is that, you know, these lists existed for quite a while. I think the reconciliation at the core of this faith is that there's four stories that are different, entirely different. And it's like, you know, so many of those believers kind of wanting to be like, no, it's the same. It's like, well then why are you telling me the story four different times? It's been put together that way. And it was a question I always had when I was a kid going to church. I'd always be like, why are there four stories and why is there these letters from this guy and then there's a whole book about what happened and they don't line up when you put them all side by side. And it was just like, can you guys not critically read these things? It was just bothered me. And that's probably why I went into the studies 'cause I wasn't the most devout, I'm still not. And so, you know, it was more like, I don't get it. Why? And it was fascinating. I had really good professors that were really helpful.
Lawrence: Something that I lost track of personally over the years, although I always had kind of half an eye and ear on it, was the more experimental side of heavy music. And so what I mean by that is, you know, I kind of grew up as a teenager in the eighties, was always into heavy music as part of my diet of music. But then as I got a bit older, I got more into what I would call creative music and improvisational music and jazz. And I didn't see the lineage, or I didn't keep up with the lineage of that in heavy music. And I always knew about like Boris and Sun O))) and I knew there was something going on, but I just didn't focus there. And now, over the last couple of years, I'm seeing more and more, and it especially seems to be people of that generation have been much more experimental in a context of heavy music, metal, whatever. I hate these genre plays, but I'm really curious about how you became interested in tapping a more experimental vein in heavy music?
Terence: I'm the worst person to ask who's a good new metal band, 'cause I'm always like this band over here. They're never—and I feel like I'm the kiss of death. 'Cause I'm like, they're doing the weirdest, most interesting stuff. So of course they're not gonna do very well (laughter) because I mean you have to think heavy metal's a very conservative genre that really kind of rewards repetition and rewards playing it safe to be quite frank. I just was at Deathfest and I love heavy metal. But it rewards nostalgia. It rewards kind of people playing it safe and doing the same thing over and over again. And then occasionally a band gets to come out and change the formula a little bit.
But I don't feel that that's how it was. I feel before the 2000s or whatever, I felt that metal was really weird and kind of you would find a band and it would be pushing something, and I was like, well, that was interesting. And I think even when death metal started or whatever, it's like, well, none of these bands sound the same. Obituary doesn't sound like Morbid Angel doesn't sound like Death. What are we even talking about? You know? This one's slow, that one's fast. You know, it's all over the place.
I think for me, you know that makes finding a band on the big scale like Blood Incantation or something like that special, you know, when you find a band that's kind of pushing a boundary or trying a different influence in there, I think that it's rewarding, you know, or this band Pissgrave that I think are really wonderful that—the vocals are just ridiculous. Whatever vocal effect they're using is just nuts. And I love that about some of these bands. And when you find them, you're like, well, that's really interesting. That sets them apart.
So for me, just to go back, I've just always been looking for new sounds. And if I find that in dub or if I find that in contemporary composition or whatever, that's always kind of like, well, that's interesting. And then I get in and that for me becomes these other touchstones.
So, you know, as I was getting into death metal and hardcore and punk, I was also getting into industrial music. And at that time that meant Einstürzende Neubauten or Test Department or whatever, who were just doing really interesting stuff sonically. And sometimes you didn't know what the sound source was, you know? I feel also that gets you into this area where slowly you're into Throbbing Gristle or you're finding out about Coil or I think you know, then maybe you find Whitehouse or you know, something like that and you're like the extremity of noise and sound.
And of course there's bands like Man Is The Bastard or you know, Discordance Axis, grindcore bands that did noise or messed with noise and tempo changes and, you know, so I don't know. I think for me, that's where it all really converged and kind of what you're saying. I also got into free jazz and got into Ornette Coleman and Pharoah Sanders and Alice Coltrane and stuff.
And it was like, you just start—at that time, there's no internet, you know, when I was a teenager, where you can listen to music easily. So you're just finding out about something and you find out something else, and that's on this record label. Then you see that record label in another story and you're like, well, what's that sound like? And you just kind of are following these paths hoping to find something, you know, new and exciting.
And I think at that time there were certain labels like maybe John Zorn's Tzadik or something like that, that it would be like, well I know it's gonna be weird, you know, it didn't matter. And you had the music press that was way more influential and robust at that time. So, you know, I still remember that big article about Merzbow and Masonna that was in maybe Spin or something like that in the nineties. And that was like, my mind was like, you can do that.
I mean, that's really for me where all that bedrock lay. And then I think I just got exhausted. Kind of like, I was just so tired of—I never could play metal. I wasn't a proficient musician. I didn't, I couldn't shred, you know, Andre in Locrian can shred, he watches Billy Sheehan videos and you know, can rock a bunch of Yes songs just off the top of his head. I am not that person. And so metal kind of turned me off in that way. I knew I was never gonna be in a metal band, so—but hardcore got me excited when I was really young and at some point just got bored with it. 'Cause it was boring. It was just boring. And the politics were boring. The music was boring. It was all boring.
And it still is. I'm sorry, I hate the hardcore revival. I'm just so tired of all the bands with three seven inches getting back together. It's like, please, I don't wanna hear—I don't care. And it's so weird to me, I'm just so burnt out by it.
That's kind of where, to me, I think it was the right time. 'Cause at that time you had these bands like Black Dice and Lightning Bolt and Wolf Eyes and I was like, this is punk. I just felt to me this was exciting and it would be alongside something like other improvisational music and it felt like songy and then improvised and I just kind of dove in. And that was really the foundation where Locrian started was kind of that was way more exciting.
But, you know, obviously we weren't gonna do that, you know, and we are old, you know, we're metalheads—we love a lot of heavy metal, and I think it just kind of came together seeing duos, like Yellow Swans or Mouthus, or Lightning Bolt. Like two people can just make a racket. And it was like, you didn't have to have bass, two guitars, drums, singer, you know, it was like you could do whatever you wanted. And that was it.
Lawrence: Keyboard player under the stage? (laughter)
Terence: You didn't have to be like that. You could kind of really write your own rules and just make a cassette and whatever, and be casual and then start to figure yourself out. And I really, you know, I'm thankful in a way for that, but that was a really important moment. I think where I felt that stuck, that kind of thing. Load Records and you know, what was happening with Hanson Records and stuff, all these labels were putting out this weird stuff and it just felt like a journey. You're gonna find something really weird under some rock and it was awesome, I think. And it really influenced me. It felt good.
Lawrence: It's interesting, your comment earlier about the conservatism in heavy metal. If you accept the analogy that metal or punk could be called a more extreme form of rock and roll—rock and roll is very conservative and reactionary—and those other two genres are the extreme versions of that conservatism? I mean the fetishization of guitar bands or the two, or the lineup like you talked about or—I won't name names, but I tell people all the time, and I'm sure listeners to this podcast have heard me say, whenever somebody says to me, oh, you should check out this album, it sounds like so and so, or it sounds like, you know, they sound just like the Stones, or they sound like Led Zeppelin. My immediate reaction is, I already have Led Zeppelin. If I want to hear something like Led Zeppelin, I'm gonna—(laughter)
Terence: And I'm certainly guilty of going back on that, but I also agree. It's like, you know, music should move somewhere and go somewhere, and I start to have just very little patience. And you know, I understand, I'll be excited about things that maybe I didn't know historically that I'm like, oh, that plugs that gap for me. You know? I didn't know that record existed and now I understand that was an important record in there, but there's just so much. And it's like this in every genre. It's like, I feel that way. I get excited by, there's this rapper, Billy Woods, he's getting a lot of attention the last few years and I think his whole crew are just these super interesting rappers and producers and they're just like—I think they're really creative and I love listening to Armand Hammer or Kenny Segal and all those people. I'm just like, these guys are really—I mean, some of it's maybe a reference to backpack rap in the nineties and stuff, but it's interesting to me. I'm like, well, that's not what's happening right now in the mainstream. So it's really cool that they're trying this thing and they're talking about stuff that's really interesting.
I'm so—I get very—I listen to, I pretty much listen to everything and I'm always just looking for—to be inspired, you know, to hear something that's interesting to fill in that gap in your musical education. You know, I think it's important and just to be hungry. And that's why it's like, I have no time. If something just sounds like the last record you did, I'm like, cool. Move it on. You know, I don't need to get it. You know, or someone says that it sounds just like this. It's like, well, does it sound like that and something? It sounds like Led Zeppelin and Neu! Oh, well there we go. That's pretty right.
Lawrence: Is it iterative in some way?
Terence: I think I just described the Secret Machines, but—
Lawrence: Nice. We could play that game all day. (laughter)
Terence: I love that band actually. I think that band, in retrospect, is the most interesting band of that New York Rock revival thing actually. 'Cause I think they were doing some really cool—also, there's tons of synths, so it sounds great.
Lawrence: I was about to say to you, I haven't thought of that band name in probably 20 years.
Terence: Not many people have, but I bring it up and everyone's like, yeah, this record's killer. I was like, yeah, it's a great record. The drums are amazing. They sound killer.
Lawrence: When you were talking earlier about, you've used the word a couple times, interesting. When you're thinking about music or what attracts you in music or just what you're looking for, do you have a sense aesthetically what interesting means to you? And my example for me would be like, I kind of like a nice dose of dissonance. I like noise. I don't need that—I mean, I love beautiful melodic things as well, but something will catch my attention if it's borderline static.
Terence: I just like a band that I don't think has it pulled together, and it's like they almost get pop. And I'm like, that is cool. I like it when the band can do it. Not a band that starts out pop.
Lawrence: No, no.
Terence: You know the band Preoccupations?
Lawrence: Yeah.
Terence: I really think that they'll have these songs and this very post punky thing. It's like, oh, it sounds like, and then suddenly it's like they have these choruses and you're like, whoa, you guys can write songs. It's not just the dark brooding, post punky thing. It's like, there's a big anthemic thing in there and it's like, I like it when the band can do that. It's interesting to me. But also, you know, I like it—I'm just thinking Richard Ramirez, the noise artist—he's a guy that's like, there's so many releases, but then when you get one, it's like, that just blows your mind. You're just like, wow. How do you do that? The texture is the same as most of the releases, but it's just great when you just—I don't know how to pinpoint it. Sometimes it's like, there just seems to be this cohesion and I don't know, it feels more serious and not like a toss off or something like that. I don't know. I guess it's when I feel that the artist is super focused, that's pretty cool to me. And I don't know that, I don't know, sometimes I'm looking for—and they literally will, I will spend lots of time trying to not be an old jerk. And when my kids talk about music, I'm like, all right, I'll put it on. And it's like, let's put it on, you know? And when I read about it, it's like, all right, well I'll try that out. I blew off Viagra Boys for so long. 'Cause I was like, they gotta suck. They're freaking brilliant and they're hilarious and really smart and their music is really good. It's like you have to do away with your prejudices.
I just don't want to get—be bitter and old and cynical and I kind of like hearing what people are doing. You know, it doesn't always work. I tried to listen to the Scandinavian—Bladee guy and I was like, I'm not into this at all. (laughter)
Lawrence: Well, but there—you know, that's like, you gotta try the food that's on your plate. You might not, there's no crime in not liking it.
Terence: It just was like, it sounds kinda like Lil Peep or something like that. And I was just like, eh, it didn't sound as unique as the hype around it. And I was like, ah, okay, I'm fine. I get why, I understand why a teenager listening to that would really identify with it and love it, and I understand how personal it could feel to them. I was like, I am clearly not the demographic for this. So, you know, I was out. I'm good. But sometimes you put something on and you're like, ah, this is great. Then my kids are like, you like this? I was like, yeah, this is cool.
Lawrence: Well, you mentioned Ramirez and the sort of volume of output and then, you know, and I think of, you said earlier, Zorn and Zorn's the same thing. Good luck staying on top of it all. But when I do check in, I'm just like, how is this good? In the amount of work that comes out. How does he maintain that level of quality? It makes no sense.
Terence: But isn't it nice that it's like, you know, that I missed it, but tune back in later and be like, yeah, that was brilliant. (laughter)
Lawrence: I think he's the most punk person alive. I'm sorry.
Terence: Massive amounts of respect. Absolutely. And I don't even—I learned of a new project. I can't remember—Steven, in Locrian was like, played something. I had no idea what it was. And I was like, I know this existed. I have to look it up. I can't remember what it is. And it was like, I was like, there's a whole new rabbit hole of John Zorn. I have to go down. I didn't even know it was there, you know? And I was like, man, I'll think about it, but I'll find it.
Lawrence: I mean, there's another one every two months. It's ridiculous.
Terence: But it had been out forever. You're probably gonna do it. Painkiller.
Lawrence: Oh, Painkiller. That should be foundational for you.
Terence: I didn't even—it just didn't—I'm sure I had heard about it, I just didn't put it on and got confused or whatever and moved on. And of course there's a ton of other things. And then he put it on something and I was like, this is amazing. He was like, yeah, it's John Zorn. It's Painkiller.
Lawrence: That's made for you.
Terence: And I was like, holy crap. I was like, of course. I'm ordering it. I'm like, oh man.
Lawrence: That's a beautiful thing though. There's so much music. I love all the rabbit holes. I love how one thing leads you to something else. Three decades in the past or whatever it is. It's like there's so much. It's a bottomless well.
Terence: Yeah.
Lawrence: Talk to me a little bit about adding a drummer. Because you were talking with some conviction earlier about the noise that two people can make.
Terence: That was a tough call when we did that in Locrian and we had—well we had worked with a drummer. Andrew from Velnias had played with us live and he was on Territories. That kind of had eased us into it. And we did have a drum machine. I would plug in this—I mean, I don't know if we followed it, but we had a drum machine. It was also kind of making noise. I think it was also just Steven—I really liked Haptic. He had been doing a lot of interesting work. At that time he then did some stuff with Pan American at that time, I think. And he said something to a friend of ours about—like a joke. Like, oh, they'd be better with a drummer. And our friend told Andre, and Andre was like, he is great. So I went and saw Haptic play at the Contemporary Art Museum and kind of expected them to set up a kit. And he just had a mixer and a tape player and some electronics and bells. And I was like, oh yeah, this guy's in. I was like he gets it. So that was around the time we were recording The Crystal World and so we talked to him about that and he was—I'd love to come in and do stuff. And so Andre and I maybe recorded half of it as a duo. You know, the title track was just him and I. And then Steven came in and did this crazy, really abstract beat and I think we even did two drum takes that we kept simultaneously, which is ridiculous. And then, so it was a few songs where it was like we would write them together there and a few that we had kind of as riffs and ideas. And then we brought Steven there and we did it. And others that we were done with were like, just do what you want, you know? And he would go. And then from that moment it was like, we gotta keep this moving on. 'Cause you know, he'd have electronics with them and contact mics and the whole thing. And it was like, you know, we just felt like we were speaking the same language pretty quickly.
Lawrence: When you guys were working on The Crystal World, or even more broadly, how much post-production is going on? Are you recording pieces, are pieces done in real time or are you stitching things together?
Terence: There was some multi-tracking going on on that record, but there's also—"Pathogens," was totally just one and done. I mean, that's what we would do. We would essentially, most recordings we did, we'd just show up at the radio station and be like, all right, we're gonna—what do we got? You got 20 minutes, we can make noise for 20 minutes. That was essentially how we did it. And then I think Crystal World started to give us—okay, we gotta structure this a little bit more. And I think really around The Clearing is really where we wrote—oh, it's gonna go and do this, and go and do that. You know? And I think that was maybe more deliberate.
Lawrence: Gotcha.
Terence: And more overdubs, way more overdubs—all right, well we're gonna do this acoustic guitar. I'm gonna add this electric guitar, then we're gonna add the Moog. It was more of that—hey, we're in the studio, we should use it rather than make everything live and do it in one take. You know, I think, or do all the instruments in one take. And the vocals would be separate, you know, kind of thing. Which we did do on The Crystal World a little bit—there's some live vocals on some of it, but for the most part, it was that big transition. I think the year before was the first time in the studio, we did the "Plague Journal" seven inch for BloodLust!. And that was with Jeremy Lemos was the producer on that one, and it was the first time we were ever in the studio together, outside the band. Before we had—before we started Locrian called Unlucky Atlas with my wife Erica. We would record that in the studio, but it's first time—I don't know. It was kind of, it was very casual when we started Locrian and then it got more serious kind of four years in.
Lawrence: And is that just because you found, you kept doing it and it was like, okay, apparently this is a thing?
Terence: Yeah, I mean, it really was we kept doing it and I don't know. It was like my biggest goal was that we'd get mentioned in the Aquarius Records weekly—you know, then Andy would write it up, you know, and in the weekly Aquarius, you know, and then he did, and it was like, ah, crap. That goal got accomplished. And it was cool with him. It was like people from France are writing you and Japan and, you know, the world of weird music was really small in some ways at that time, I think. And you know, if you're doing something weird in that sphere, you kind of could get noticed, I think. I think now, ironically, it's way harder. It's just not as focused. For a newer band to start now. I think it's really challenging, but I think at that time you had these big advocates who had a lot of respect. And I would do it. I would get the weekly Aquarius. I'd just go through it—that sounds cool. That sounds cool. That sounds cool. That sounds cool. What's my budget? Okay. These three things, you know, and I wouldn't even have heard—I mean, I think they had some samples on some of them, but then I just would be like, who cares? You know? It was the one that was like, sounds like they turned on four amps in a room and forgot about it. And I was like, that sounds great.
Lawrence: I don't even know what that means, but I like it. (laughter)
Terence: I was like, that's—I'm gonna like that record. I think I have it somewhere. It might be Robedoor. I don't know.
Lawrence: That's great. To stay with Crystal World for another minute or two. I'm curious about how did the Ballard novel—what's the intersection there? Was it, you pick up the book, you read it, and now all of a sudden you're making music and you can't get it outta your head. Why that?
Terence: I think it happened afterwards. It wasn't the first thought. And then I think—huge Ballard fan and I'd read, I pretty much at this point I've read everything, but at that point read a few things and we titled the title track "The Crystal World," and then it all just kind of started to come into focus really around that theme. And you know, it just all felt like, why not? And no one had done it before. I don't know, Burning World. Swans. Drown World. You know? So I was just like, all right, well let's do The Crystal World and, I don't know. I've always found it really evocative, this idea of crystallization or something, you know, solidifying that was not solid or something was like, crystallization of things is really weird when you watch it in time lapse or something. It's fascinating, you know? So I don't know. It just kind of felt right, but it wasn't like we didn't set out like, oh, we're making from page one to page 100, you know? It's not like that at all. You know, it just was kind of like the song was there. 'Cause I was like, oh, we should use The Crystal World. And then we titled that 'cause it sounded crystally. I don't know. And then it was like, well that's the album. Because it was like, we kind of was like, that's a cool title. Book's awesome. We just, we kind of were like, and everything starts and we would talk about the book. It was like, the narrative was fitting with kind of the sonic story we were telling and we felt—
Ballard has this way of personalizing something that's grandiose and really hard to find yourself in. The world is flooded, but it's like these two people are in a relationship or there's this conflict of individuals in Rushing to Paradise or you know, whatever. And I think that's what makes Ballard great and also what makes him hard when people are like, oh, he's not science fiction or whatever. It's like he just does a great job of kinda skirting—there's these sciencey things happening. But in the end it's a detective story or it's a love story, or it's—he's well, and Christopher's studying leprosy and chasing down his love of his life or whatever, divorced there and it's like, so all this stuff is falling apart and coming together. Ballard's just great at that, I think, and I think a lot of science fiction—and I say this as a huge fan, it's like, it just gets so lost in, it's like, oh my gosh, I don't care how the supercomputer works, man. I don't need, you know, you're just like this boring, (laughter) and it's like Ballard gets, and it's better for worse. It's not always great, but when it really works, it works 'cause you're in it. 'Cause you're like, oh, there's these characters and they're going through all this stuff. And then, oh man, the world's getting really weird around them. And that's what makes it awesome.
Lawrence: Tell me about the cover art for The Crystal World.
Terence: That was another one of those goals that we had was we wanna work with Justin Bartlett. And that'll never happen. And then literally Keith, when we was working on The Crystal World was like, I'm gonna have Justin do something. And so Justin—rest in peace, Justin Bartlett—he messaged me 'cause he was like, I see you're an artist. And that's when we got to know each other. I was a little bit apprehensive to be honest. 'Cause I normally work—I normally kind of use non illustrators. So Trevor Paglen or Chris Dorland, Scott Levin, Elijah Burgher, these artists that I know. I know their work or they're weird, you know, David Altmejd and the cover of Infinite Dissolution. So I kind of reach out to galleries and get licensing and to deal with all that stuff. And it was the first illustrator I've worked with was Justin and maybe the last one we worked with for an album cover—merch, different story, but album cover. The last illustrator we worked with. He was awesome. He just wrote me and was like, I have all these ideas, and he would just start sending me these crazy sketches and I was like, this is gonna be fricking weird. And I loved it. I like everything. He sent and he had all these ideas and just an amazing person to work with. And he kind of took it and just kinda took his style, took what we were telling him and just made this weird skull, deer, crystallization, eyeballs. It's great. It's one of my favorites in the end. And he did this cool stuff and he inverted it, but then did this stuff with the color, so all the lines look yellow, purple, green, all these weirder highlighted colors and it's just, it's a gray cover I think. I mean, he did a great job and I miss him.
I got to meet him one time. We did Deathfest together to see Samael and and Mayhem and it was awesome just staying out with him that day. At here in Baltimore, at Deathfest. And we were actually, before he passed away, I mean, before his cancer got so bad, we were talking about doing some more work and stuff. And it just got to a point where he couldn't—I don't know, his health was really bad with cancer and stuff, and it was really sad. 'Cause I think he's a really talented illustrator.
Lawrence: Of course. And I think that's a pretty esteemed work of his.
Terence: It's been crazy how many people have reproduced it and he made prints and t-shirts and all that stuff and it's just like, wow.
Lawrence: It's cool. It's really cool.
Terence: It's very cool. You know, it's like I don't—that's just awesome.
Lawrence: Before I know our time together's coming into a close and before I move on from Crystal World, I wanted to ask you about your experience of going back and anything you have to say about that. What's it like, how did the music strike you? Your impressions.
Terence: Well, I think for me, we had Brad Boatright remaster it and—there's nothing worse than the record gets out and I don't know why, my vinyl copy is fine, but there was, there must have been a bad batch of it 'cause people would complain so much about the vinyl, the original vinyl pressing of The Crystal World. And so in my head I was always like, oh we gotta repress this thing one day. We gotta repress it. And that's probably my proudest part of redoing it, was that we got it remastered. And there was tracks that I couldn't even listen to. 'Cause I was like, I don't know what the hell's going on. Why did we mix it? Now that I've been doing music longer, I'm just like, why did we mix it this way? That was so stupid. And now hearing it mastered the way it is, I'm like, man, I even know that Steven was doing that. Or I remember doing what I was doing, and I can hear everything and I'm like, I love it. It's been very nice to go back with a new remastering and a new pressing and just be really pleased with the work. Just from what fans have said. And even newer fans of it, it's just like, which they didn't hear when they first came out, or, you know, the vinyls sold out and, you know, whatever. It's been coolest to hear people kind of who discover it or get back to it and say nice things about it. And I'm really proud of it. Things I never heard before there and I'm like, that's really great.
Lawrence: That's awesome. That's great. Tell me a little bit about Brutalism. I'm really curious about not only your need for that, but also I love the split release concept. With Toru.
Terence: That was a project I started a while ago and it always had this idea—
Lawrence: Pre COVID?
Terence: Pre COVID. I started it and then I kind of put it aside for a bit. I was like, I don't know, 'cause I was like, I don't really wanna play live, and I didn't really have a plan, so I just was like, so I would just save a few ideas and songs and riffs and stuff. And it was just like, I don't play guitar in Locrian. So I was like, well, I'd like to—I like playing guitar. That was kind of the real initial premise of it was, I wanna play metal guitar. My way. I'm still no shredder. You know what I mean? I'm no Kevin Hufnagel, you know what I'm saying? (laughter) But I just was like, I've been working on some stuff. And then Toru, I did their—I did the art for their LP. They put out, there's this great band, this trio from France, which just killer, they're phenomenal. They're like, well, we want, we have this track. We want to do a split. Do you have—does Locrian have something? And I was like, we just released End Terrain. We have nothing. And that's not, it's just not even happening. It's impossible for us to get together and do stuff. I was like, well, I got this project Brutalism of some songs and, and they really liked it. And I was like, all right. So I finished those up for them and it was just this idea of trying to be more mysterious, make something dark. Although the split is kind of, I hopeful sounding, I think so I don't, I dunno, (laughter) but it's just a one person black metal thing. That's what I was going for. A classic one person black metal. Just like, I'm not gonna worry about this live. I'm not gonna hire session people. I'm just making these atmospheric weird recordings that I'm, you know, that are based kind of on ideas of black metal or whatever. And that was where it started and kind of where it's been going.
Lawrence: Did you hear "Witches Cliff" before you recorded your piece? Or were you in dialogue in any way?
Terence: We were talking and they had sent me something that I loved it, I just loved how long it took. I was like, where's this going? This is great. I was like, these are some cool sounds. And then the drums come in, you're like, ah, hell yeah. And it's a killer track. And that's why I wasn't sure. 'Cause I was like, my stuff is not kind of that experimental—I felt they were really pushing it and I felt like mine were kind of more songy, a little bit—not really, but you know, compared to theirs or whatever. It was way more structured and little sections and stuff. And I thought, you know, I was really—and we got to, I designed that with some of their photographs and I got to design that for them. For us. It was really cool.
Lawrence: That's really cool. It's truly a collaborative effort or collaborative output. Given that your design layout work used sort of Arthur's photograph, it's just really cool that it's a real melting pot of people.
Terence: Real collaboration. I feel that they're definitely kindred spirits and their full length is amazing. I dunno if you've heard it, but it's a great record. I think it's wonderful. They had sent me that too. They're like, wanna use your artwork for this cover? And I was like, sure. I don't really know 'em. And it doesn't happen all the time. It's happened enough or a little bit—okay, cool. We'll see. You know, they cold called me essentially. And then I heard it and I was like, yeah, this is good. This is really good. And they were just so easy to work with, just super nice people. And I think they're doing some good stuff. They're going on tour with Cave In—what the heck? That's just, that's ridiculous. And Torche, that's what a weird—I think it's a weird bill, but it also kind of makes sense. They're definitely gonna challenge some people, I think, with what how they do it live, but—
Lawrence: That's great. But that's good, you know. Listen man, thank you so much for making time. It's so fun to talk to you.
Terence: No problem. It's a great question—
Lawrence: And I'll look forward to hearing what comes next when you guys can get back together and—
Terence: We're out. We're trying. I think we have, there's a handful of riffs we're sharing and then I think Andre's coming here in a few weeks and we're gonna try to write some stuff to send over to Steven and I'll see Steven in a month, so we're—we're trying, you know, it's like—
Lawrence: The gears are turning.
Terence: Yeah. It's like, you know, I think it's good 'cause it's just like, you know, we did End Terrain. We went on tour and I was like, I'm good. I don't wanna tour ever again. (laughter) I'm perfectly okay. I don't need to do it. I'm very good in my life. Let's make music. And that's—and I just—do I wanna be in the van or do I wanna be in the studio? I'd rather be in the studio. And that was a great, for me at least creatively, I was like, okay, I can close that book. I'm hitting 45. I can close that book and I can focus on the thing I wanna focus on. I don't wanna do that stuff. I wanna do this stuff. And so that just helps me kind of be like, you know, let's work on making new music. You know, that's the thing to do. And not writing a set and get in the van and all that stuff.
Lawrence: You think it'll happen though? Do you think you'll end up back on the road?
Terence: Not—no, (laughter) not in the sense of we're going from every town to town and you know, that's never—no. I'm already saying no. Flying to one place and playing a handful of things for a weekend. Sure. But I'm absolutely not—I'm not road warrioring that—no, I have a studio at home. I have to keep my practice going. I have family, I have kids—it's like, I revisit it last summer and was like, oh yeah, this is why I don't like this. It's like, no, and it's, there's no money that's worth it, man. I'm sorry to not be there and—and then it's like, you can't change the week. You still gotta play somewhere on a Monday. Man. Sorry. That sucks. It sucks. I don't care what town you're in. It sucks. It sucks in New York City and it sucks in Manhattan, Illinois. It sucks. It is just the worst, you know? So I'm not looking forward to that and how it makes me feel creatively just—nope, I'm good.
Lawrence: No, I hear you. You gotta be like the country music act and go out Thursday to Sunday.
Terence: That is literally the way to do it. Well, and you can drop Sunday. (laughter)
Lawrence: But yeah, like to me, you not doing the matinee.
Terence: Nah, I mean—
Lawrence: The all ages matinee is a thing.
Terence: You, I think that there's ways to do it. It's just like, you know, I mean, and then also it's like, to be frank, it's like we're Locrian. We're not Deafheaven, man, or whatever, Turnstile. It's just like, this is not—let's just not—they can do it. They're huge. We're not that band. And it's like you have to start to confront reality, you know, at some point and be like, you have to do something that works for you. And getting in the van and driving across the country and playing every single night. Nope, I'm okay.
Lawrence: You know what, man? The thing that works, doing the thing that works for you, that's the most metal thing of all. And I think that's a—
Terence: Yeah, you keep your sanity and keep it fun. When it's not fun, why are you doing it? You know? What are you doing? If you feel trapped and uncreative, and uninspired, and it's a burden and you are arguing with promoters and all that. This is like, oh my God, I'd rather have a root canal than go through that again. So I'm saying there's a chance. (laughter)
